Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

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Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:10 pm

This came up in another thread; I didn't want to take it too far off topic, but someone was interested in what I had to say and it IS a potentially interesting topic of conversation.
For those of you confused as to who I mean, there was a lesbian who got gender realignment, married his girlfriend, and when the new wife fell sick and could no longer have children, the husband came off his hormones and was artificially inseminated.

Feel free to discuss this, or FtM transexual ops, etc.
Jase wrote: I do want to say one thing on the point of what the people have mentioned- the "man" who became pregnant. Now, I don't want to offend anyone and please remember this is my personal opinion. If you don't want to know any more, please stop reading now.

I am FtM transgender. And the idea of being pregnant- of carrying a child- of giving birth- of being a mother instead of a father- disgusts me. It is entirely unnatural in my mind, because I am a man. If you can be okay with something so overwhelmingly femanine happening to your body, I don't think you can say you're a man- and neither can he.
Did you know, as a woman, he was a fighter for gay rights? That for years he fought for the right to marry his girlfriend; until one day- out of the blue- he announced that he wanted to be a man? That none of his friends or family saw it coming?
And that once he was legally a man- he married that woman pretty quick?
Being gender dysphoric- that is, physically the wrong gender- is a lifelong thing. It's not a mindset and it's not something that just happens one day. You live with it all your life. Wouldn't you think his/her nearest and dearest would have noticed something, at some point, in his/her life? Doesn't it seem a little suspect that the right to marry his lesbian partner was the centre of his life both before and after? And the fact that he's then fine to do something which is incredibly femanine with his body; which would produce femanine hormones, and make him feel like a woman... There is little I'd not do sooner than to become a true man for several years, then put my body through that.

...Anyway, that's not even the topic the thread was made for; but it's a subject that makes my blood boil. More than once I've had people mention it; and it almost always comes up when people are aware of my gender and I mention that I'd like children. I hate the very idea of being associated with it- to my mind, he's no man. He's someone who couldn't deal with the prejudices other people had against his sexuality and so decided to change it by changing his gender.
[/rant]
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  greven on Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:02 pm

I'll be the devils lawyer here because I am apparently seeing something you are not.

Let me make it clear that I dont know anything about the feelings of a transsexual (or what you want to be called), or the case at hand.
BUT!
I am going to assume that this here man (I am just going to go with "He" because I think that is what he would want) loves his wife.
Add to that that he, like you, likes children. with a bit of luck his wife feels the same way.
Add to that the enourmus emotional stress this sickness put on the little family.
So a+b+c= X
With the stress and the broken dream of a kid from the wife he might deside to take one for the team.

I am aware that this is a rather complicated issue and I am not really doing a good job explaining this, but I hope you get what I am saying.

Please remember that I have no inside info like you do on this subject.
But being a man myself I can actually say that being pregnant and what follows is something that actually intriuges me quite a bit, not something I find disgusting at all.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Joneko on Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:12 pm

My only problem with the scenario is that it was publicized massively, and willingly on their part, as a man being pregnant. But in my opinion, if the person is able to get pregnant they are not physically a man. I have no problem if they would have said transgendered, but if you still have those organs, you're not male. Granted he wasn't female either -- this is the problem with the binary concept of gender -- but it was touted almost as a medical miracle, when it was really a choice this person made, which was not to completely change their body from one gender to the other. Again, if they're comfortable in the in-between power to them! But I don't think that they're a man, biologically, if they consciously retain their female reproductive organs. That would be intersex.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:32 pm

My first point is... surrogate motherhood. Basically, the concept is that the eggs from one biological woman are removed, inseminated, and put into a different woman who carries the child until childbirth. It's what I intend to do myself, if I settle down with a man. (If I settle down!)There is that option there for those who really want children- because, no matter what, I would never agree to carry a child. I've been forced to live almost all my life so far as a woman- once I go on hormones, I plan to stay on them until I die, and live truly as a man. I've had my fill of my body doing femanine stuff- far more so, in fact!
And Greven- I don't find pregnancy itself disgusting, but the idea of actually carrying a child- given that I've experienced certain femanine biological... stuff- does disgust me.

As for what defines a man and what doesn't- I'm talking about how they are inside, their personal feelings, if their mind functions as a male one- to be honest, there's something that defines whether one thinks as a male or a female that I can't describe, but a gender dysphoric would understand. You hate your very flesh; the way your body reacts- it's not something that really can be put into words beyond a disgust at being the gender you were born, and to reduce the impact of that gender as much as possible. It's... complicated.
I'm not inclined to agree that if a man has overies, he's not a man, but something else- after all, I'll never have all the reproductive, ah, areas a born man has, (there's only so much that can be "built") and whilst I can see of no reason for a FtM to keep a womb, the overies I can understand- for the surrogate motherhood I mentioned. As long as he takes his hormones, the overies just... sit there. But, I can see your point, even if I disagree with it.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Joneko on Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:46 pm

Jase wrote: As for what defines a man and what doesn't- I'm talking about how they are inside, their personal feelings, if their mind functions as a male one- to be honest, there's something that defines whether one thinks as a male or a female that I can't describe, but a gender dysphoric would understand. You hate your very flesh; the way your body reacts- it's not something that really can be put into words beyond a disgust at being the gender you were born, and to reduce the impact of that gender as much as possible. It's... complicated.
I'm not inclined to agree that if a man has overies, he's not a man, but something else- after all, I'll never have all the reproductive, ah, areas a born man has, (there's only so much that can be "built") and whilst I can see of no reason for a FtM to keep a womb, the overies I can understand- for the surrogate motherhood I mentioned. As long as he takes his hormones, the overies just... sit there. But, I can see your point, even if I disagree with it.

Oh, no no, I wasn't talking in terms of gender, I was talking sex. Gender is a social/psychological construct, sex is biological -- physical, hormonal, and whatnot. I have quite a few transgendered friends so I do understand where you're coming from, I should have clarified my own reason for saying -- well, the reason I touch on the man vs. not a man thing is because the gentleman in question went after all the publicity without, it seems, much pause, but the people publicized it touted it as a medical miracle, a man getting pregnant, when really, in very strictly biological terms, the gentleman did have a uterus. Strictly medically speaking.

As far as I'm concerned, if he feels more comfortable as a man, and wants to be referred to as a man, than he's a man. Visa versa re: a woman.

I did learn something new today though -- about the ovaries -- thank you Jase, I hadn't even thought about that.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  greven on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:06 pm

Usually having an outside perspective can give great wisdom, but I belive that this is not the case here.
I simply cant follow your kind of view and the way I see it, only one in the same situation can even begin to understand what is going on inside the head of... well one of you kind, in lack of a better term.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:24 pm

Joneko wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, if he feels more comfortable as a man, and wants to be referred to as a man, than he's a man. Visa versa re: a woman.
I agree, but the question remains whether he truly does or not- given the abruptness of the wish for gender realignment, for one; and for another... well, if he felt more comfortable as a man, why would he decide to have a child? Pregnancy is a female thing; from hormones, to instinct, down to the physical side of it.
You do bring up a good point about how he sought the publicity- it brings up a lot of questions I never really thought about before.

Greven- I really can't comment, to be honest. Before I ever considered I might have any gender issues I was introduced to my first transgender aquaintance and I really did just... get it. But, of course, that's because it's something I'd dealt with all my life- I just hadn't come to realise it yet.
But I imagine it's a very difficult thing to wrap your head around- imagine you had something physical you hated about yourself, something which had a huge affect on your life, and you had the drive to change it. Once you had managed to change it, you'd probably be extra-careful not to allow it to come back into your life. Does that make sense....?
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Joneko on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:39 pm

[quote="Jase"]
Joneko wrote:Pregnancy is a female thing; from hormones, to instinct, down to the physical side of it.

On a personal side note, I had to laugh a little at this, because one of my weirdest issues is that I have never desired to be pregnant. I don't like the idea of being pregnant. I do have a very strong maternal instinct, but never had the desire to...blegh...do that. I've never marvele at (or even appreciated, really) what it means that I have the biological capability. The closest I've come is a "...I can...try it..." and even then I cringe a little on the inside. I wonder if that says something about my feminine instinct.

Also, in pursuing one line of thought I completely forgot about the other -- the whole suddenness of the gender change. What has he said on that topic -- anything at all?

(Though I almost feel bad saying 'well he needs to explain himself, how dare he?' on that one.)
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:58 pm

To be honest, my first mental reaction is that you're overriding your instinct with your personality and feelings. Although I can't comment on whether that fits you in general. xP But the fact that you cringe at the thought of being pregnant reminds me a lot of myself- I have a strong paternal instinct, but it's easy to confuse the two. The only reason I understand that it's paternal is that I wouldn't be able to coddle my children at all- the stereotypical difference between a mother and a father comes down to instinct. However, as a species, we rarely let instinct drive us any more.

As for what was said by him- there were a couple of articles back when it first occured where it gave a little of the perspective of the family and friends; and it was them that said it came from nowhere. I've been trying to find it, but it's hard to find articles from that far back and I don't remember where the articles were. I'll keep looking though.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:14 pm

"Sterilisation is not a requirement for sex reassignment, so I decided to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy but kept my reproductive rights."
Source.
This makes it sound as if he didn't have penile construction (which would assumably complicate childbirth anyway, and I know he gave birth naturally.) Wouldn't a person who was truly a man want to be as close to a man as possible- wouldn't he want penile construction?
I'm not sure if that's genuinely the case but I can find no mention of his having penile construction anywhere.

I still can't find the one I was after- but I remember it told how both of them appeared together on the cover on a lesbian magazine. (I remember they were in bikinis and flexing their muscles, which were... impressive to say the least.) It was the most in-depth article I could find at the time and it's really bothering me I can't find it now.

:EDIT: It helped when I remembered it was an English web site- here we go.
"Friends of the couple say they were shocked by Beatie's decision to become a man, who, as a woman, had campaigned rigorously for same sex marriage.
Gay friend Hans Anderson, 50, said: "I was surprised because Tracy has always seemed so happy as a lesbian with her partner Nancy.
"She'd never said anything about wanting a gender change and she didn't tell anyone about having her op.""


Last edited by Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding in a source)
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Emilyelizabethx on Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:19 pm

To be honest, I couldn't give a crap. XD Its what he wants to do, he's not forcing anyone else to do it. Its his body, his feelings, his mind and his rationality. Who are we to judge? Have we walked in his footsteps, felt his feelings? Everyone is different after all I hate the way society is so judgemental and pious. But I do feel sorry for the child who will grow up facing a wall of stigma, which isn't the parent's fault but rather society's. But it is the parents fault for raising a child in that society. Perhaps they should go and live in Cuba XD

Edited to add, that wasn't nessesarily directed at you, but just the world in general XD
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  greven on Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:34 pm

Jase wrote:"Sterilisation is not a requirement for sex reassignment, so I decided to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy but kept my reproductive rights."
Source.
This makes it sound as if he didn't have penile construction (which would assumably complicate childbirth anyway, and I know he gave birth naturally.) Wouldn't a person who was truly a man want to be as close to a man as possible- wouldn't he want penile construction?
I'm not sure if that's genuinely the case but I can find no mention of his having penile construction anywhere.

I still can't find the one I was after- but I remember it told how both of them appeared together on the cover on a lesbian magazine. (I remember they were in bikinis and flexing their muscles, which were... impressive to say the least.) It was the most in-depth article I could find at the time and it's really bothering me I can't find it now.

:EDIT: It helped when I remembered it was an English web site- here we go.
"Friends of the couple say they were shocked by Beatie's decision to become a man, who, as a woman, had campaigned rigorously for same sex marriage.
Gay friend Hans Anderson, 50, said: "I was surprised because Tracy has always seemed so happy as a lesbian with her partner Nancy.
"She'd never said anything about wanting a gender change and she didn't tell anyone about having her op.""

Getting the last operation is just about the most important of everything, if he didnt take that, then he clearly wasnt ready to go all the way.
It seems a lot like it was a spontaneous thing from what I am hearing here.

This sounds more like a publicity thing than an emotional one, and that really disgusts me.
Like he is trying to be different TO BE different, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Joneko on Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:21 pm

Emilyelizabethx wrote:To be honest, I couldn't give a crap. XD Its what he wants to do, he's not forcing anyone else to do it. Its his body, his feelings, his mind and his rationality. Who are we to judge? Have we walked in his footsteps, felt his feelings? Everyone is different after all I hate the way society is so judgemental and pious. But I do feel sorry for the child who will grow up facing a wall of stigma, which isn't the parent's fault but rather society's. But it is the parents fault for raising a child in that society. Perhaps they should go and live in Cuba XD

Edited to add, that wasn't nessesarily directed at you, but just the world in general XD

I think part of the discussion is just fascination and examination, a sort of curiosity about getting into his head. At least that's what it is for me. Hell, I would like to sit down and just ask him to tell me about it, but that would probably be rude and intrusive. Though he did so for reporters.

And it does seem like a very strange thing to do on such a whim. Though he could just have been very private about it. And as for campaigning for gay rights, there are straight allies who do so as well; just because one isn't gay (or isn't planning on staying that way?) doesn't mean they don't still feel passionate about the rights of those who are. I have an older straight friend who's been very vocally invested in gay rights for as long as I can remember.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Oh, of course- there's no reason for straights not to support gay rights. But the way he switched was odd; and I've never heard any mention of him actively supporting gay rights since getting the sex change. Of course, just because there's no mention doesn't mean it's not there; although if he's stopped being so active about it, it really does suggest the only reason was so he could marry his lover- which also makes me think it even more likely he got the sex change purely to be able to marry her.

As for being able to sit down and ask him- people are very, very rarely completely honest about topics such as this. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of people are often dishonest with themselves- whether because they can't deal with a truth, or because they'd rather believe whatever they'd rather believe.
But yes- a part of it is a desire to understand the psychology behind it; but in my case it sort of bothers me because- well, if what I believe is correct- that he used it as a way to simply be accepted for who he is and loving who he does- then he essentially pretended he suffered what I've suffered from all my life just for conveniance. Imagine it's something that affects you and that you feel passionate about and I'm sure you'll see why I, personally, feel strongly about it.

...Wow, was that rambly. 4AM- bed, methinks.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  ReiDavidson on Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:48 pm

Hey hey hey hey heyheyheyheyheyheyheyhey Joanna.

Speaking of abrupt decisions to be transgendered.

I have three words.

Leila. Jess. Renee.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Joneko on Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:18 pm

I'd say maybe there was something that made a light go on in his head -- for Leila it was when she came over to visit me in the states and we were doing crossdressing shoots. She wanted a full makeover after she discovered a makeup book I had, and I gave her a few -- and then I suppose it was one of those situations where she realized what hadn't felt quite right before that? Soon after she got an evaluation and started taking hormone pills. I'm not sure how complex the process is in the AU as opposed to the UK -- Jase, I know you were talking about the length of the process in your other thread. I don't think it took as long; as far as I can remember she started hormones what felt like almost immediately after she realized she wanted to be a woman.

Though I think there are a lot of diverging parts there, mainly because I don't think Leila was really part of a community in which she was exposed to that idea much before, whereas one might assume (though if I'm wrong someone tell me) that being a very active member of a larger gay community one would have to have at least been exposed to that concept or idea before, of being transgendered.

It did seem very abrupt though, in both cases. o.o; Though after Leila started the process, during which she was with her then-boyfriend Jesse, Jesse started the process and became Jess, so one can't quite argue the same motivation there.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:42 pm

It does sound like your friend Leila just twigged- an introduction to the option of gender changes can do that, and I have a transexual friend who was literally like that- it was mentioned and she clicked as to what was wrong. For various circumstances, she spent at least five years with no intention of openly being a woman- although, she was forty, and it was really hard for her to adjust. Anyway.
I think it's one thing to realise it as soon as the option's brought up to you and then rush through the whole thing- although I disagree with an abrupt gender realignment anyway. The pace it's taking for me to get mine is driving me mad- but if I change my mind in a year or two (I can say now that I won't, and I truly believe that, but who can know?) there'll be no ill affects. I think I'd probably try to take it slower than I'd want to even if I could rush into it- I've tried to pace myself as best as I can, although once my relationship fell apart because of the gender thing, I had no real reason to hold back beyond- well, common sense, really.
The thing is that there was actually no surprise from my mother when I told her, even though I probably talk to her once every other month. All she said was that she'd "probably take a while to get used to the new name" and that she'd "have to get used to the idea of having two sons". My closest friends barely even blinked. That sort of suggests that there were red flags abound- and I'd expect there'd be some clue to the nearest and dearest in most cases.
I've only known one transgender before and after the realisation; who, ironically, I dated for a while, before he moved in with my best friend. xD I can't say I expected it from him (MtF, but he still identifies largely as male) but I wasn't surprised. It seemed... right for him.

Jesse > Jess seems wierd to me, though. I mean... the odds of knowing someone else who's also gender dysphoric and not out is relatively slender; although since Leila was in a gay relationship before it's not as farfetched as someone who doesn't move in the GBLT circles. The odds of your partner coming out as trans at the same time as you and getting gender realignment alongside you just... boggles the mind a bit. I'm not sure I'd handle it well- it's stressful, here more so than many places it seems, and that much stress in a relationship at once would probably end badly.
...Although the guy I was dating when I "came out" as a man would make an excellent woman in his personality. xD
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  ReiDavidson on Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:56 am

No no no it gets weirder.

So Leila and Jess get a place together and their living in couple's bliss, both of them full surgically girls. And Leila's little brother Raven visits or lives with them, I don't remember.

Well now Raven is Renee.

We've decided it must be something in the water.

And you can say "Oh, no, that's too fast and too big of a coincidence." But she is so friggin' happy as a girl. They all are.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:41 pm

Well, for the speed thing, I will say they're lucky- there's people out there who realise too late it's not right for them.

And yeah- that is really really wierd. xD I'd be blown away by the whole thing, really!
(And really? He was called Raven? O_O There's names used in America that sound so odd to me, or to Brits in general!)
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  greven on Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:24 pm

You english people get all the cool names, Jack, Raven, Jose... We get Jens, Ole and Åse.
Even if you are reading these aloud and thinking they are not so bad, then it is simply because you are pronouncing them wrong Razz
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:38 pm

Ah... American culture is very different to English culture. xP I can't imagine ever, ever meeting an English person called Raven, or Jose, or Jesse. >.>;
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Joneko on Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:42 pm

Rowan, love, it was Rowan XD Actually I adore the name Rowan.

ANYWAY.

It's a fascinating occurrence and a little mind-boggling, but they ARE all so very happy with themselves and their bodies. It's great to see them as happy as they are. Although I admit I really miss talking politics instead of shoes. But that's not a matter of gender change so much as a shift in interests. She would be a very interesting person to have on the forums actually. Lala, I mean. (Leila.) Or, really, all three of them.

At any rate, it certainly wasn't to get married. Though I do occasionally teasingly ask when the hell one of them is going to pop the question already (though people can live a whole lifetime without being married, which is just as wonderful as long as it's their choice).

I almost want to say that, if it weren't for the marriage thing, this could simply been one of those issues of sudden recognition with our pregnant gentleman friend. Even the drop-off in politics could be explained with the sheer fact that there's so much going on re: preparation and media attention.

Though again, the media attention is what REALLY makes it so hinky to me. People who do things for the cameras are very rarely doing them for themselves...
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  ReiDavidson on Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:50 pm

Rowan...? Oh right... *could have sworn it was Raven*

Renee told me the other night that there are three other trannies in various stages of transformation in her graduating class.

Also, they don't live in the US. They live in Australia. Leila's just visited the ex-hubby a few times.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  Jase on Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:16 am

ReiDavidson wrote:Also, they don't live in the US. They live in Australia. Leila's just visited the ex-hubby a few times.
It's still a different culture. (: That was my point, that's all. English culture is definately different to that of other English-speaking countries.
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

Post  ReiDavidson on Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:17 am

I have a friend from Englandland that she and I compare and contrast often, so I can believe it. XD
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ReiDavidson
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Re: Female to Male transexuals, plus "male pregnancy"

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