Third party dealing with homophobic friends

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Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  greven on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:17 pm

Yeah I don’t imagine this is something you guys are actually thinking of, I am though, since I happen to be a “third party”. By that I mean someone who knows the LGBT community and accepts it, but isn’t actually a LGB or T.

I am, as you should know by now, pretty open minded but as I am sure you know not everyone are that way.
I have a few friends, who shall go unnamed, that are… less open minded when it comes to this particular issue. They are great guys altogether and I have been friends with them for a number of years, but when the subject falls on Gay people they start hating real bad.
I am not trying to bad mouth them for using the word gay negatively (like: That is so gay) because truth be told, so do I from time to time. It never refers to atual gay people, it is more used like to point out something is stupid. I am fully aware that using gay like that is hardly a positive thing but it is only the last few years I have been getting more into equal rights, and with everyone around me still using it, I can only say that old habits die hard.

When the topic falls on equal rights the things gets more off though, everyone agrees that equal rights should be given to women, but then someone brings up gay people. Most of my friends do believe in equal rights to gay people but a few will not see reason on this subject. They see gay people as lesser beings, one of them even think it is some sort of decease. Another one of them is religious and says that it is like spitting god in the face (his words not mine), and that being gay should be illegal. The last of them (3 in total) just thinks they should stay away from her, because someone who likes his or her own sex is clearly some sort of freak or psycho.
We try to reason with them whenever this is brought up, but it is like talking to a brick wall. They refuse to listen to reason. I have a theory that some homophobic’s are actually scared homos who are afraid of the reaction from the world should they come out, so they hide the fact under a deep layer of hate towards homos. Some of us think this might be true for one of them, due to a few incidents when he was very drunk, and just knowing him pretty good in general. We have tried to tuch the subject but he freaks a bit so we have decided that he should do it in his time and we wont bother him before he is ready to take a step, though I do make an effort to make sure he knows that we wont leave him if he is really turning that way.

As for the other 2 I don’t really know, the religious one makes sense in the fact that it is in the bible, but the girl is just plain rude when it comes to homos. She saw me on here the other day, and freaked quite a bit, thought I was: “Becoming a fucking fag” I believe she put it that way. She is really a nice girl normally but this seemed to really get to her, and it is not till here tonight that she have been answering my messages again, and I have been able to sort things out. She is still not too happy about me writing with “that kind of people” though.

I guess that what I want to point out is that while none of your friends will abandon you because you are gay, lesbian, bi or trans, then it might put a stress on their other friendships. I wanted to tell you this because I am not sure that you are aware of it, you have most likely never heard of it from your friends because they don’t want you to feel bad.
Of course this might only be something I am experiencing but… I don’t know, I just felt like I needed to say it and thought you might get something out of hearing it.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Fly Hue on Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:41 pm

1) If you have any queer friends and you notice that someone is giving them a hard time, STAND UP FOR THEM. I'm sometimes given a hard time at school (and I'm pretty feminine, really...) and it feels just awful to have my friends just watching and IGNORING the issue. If I get the nerve to stand up for myself, I kind of lose it, and I feel COMPLETELY pathetic knowing no one has my back. I'd feel more composed if I had friends that were more willing to stand up for me. I know my friends suck, but they're all I have for now. The worst part is that these are the same friends that were fighting so hard to help get the GSA passed at my school, but for some reason they can't... be there for me and stand for what they've been preaching this whole time? 'Not rejecting' me is not enough. I want real friends that will be there for me. It leaves me feeling like my friendship is nothing more than a charity case. So stand up for people. Those bullies might never learn but it feels a hell of a lot better to at least know SOMEONE is there for you. When it comes to bullies, I not only have to face them but the fact that I must face them alone.

2) Read other people's rants, debates, articles, etc. Different minds will bring up different points, and this will make you a better debater. Read arguments from BOTH sides so you know what offenses to be prepared for. To start I'd recommend the sarcastic list of 'Why Gay Marriage is Wrong' from the satirical facebook group "Gay Marriage killed the Dinosaurs". This list is great because: It's funny, It names several different attack points from different angles, and It gives valid arguments for each of these attacks.

Top 17 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong

17. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

16. Gay culture is a new fad created by the liberal media to undermine long-standing traditions. We know this is true because gay sex did not exist in ancient Greece and Rome.

15. There are plenty of straight families looking to adopt, and every unwanted child already has a loving family. This is why foster care does not exist.

14. Conservatives know best how to create strong families. That is why it is not true that Texas and Mississippi have the highest teen birthrates, and Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire have the lowest. This is a myth spread by the liberal media.

13. Marriage is a religious institution, defined by churches. This is why atheists do not marry. Christians also never get a divorce.

12. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why our society has no single parents.

11. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

10. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

9. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

8. Gay marriage should be decided by the people and their elected representatives, not the courts. The framers checked the courts, which represent mainstream public opinion, with legislatures created to protect the rights of minorities from the tyranny of the majority. Interference by courts in this matter is inappropriate, just as it has been every time the courts have tried to hold back legislatures pushing for civil rights.

7. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because "separate but equal" institutions are a good way to satisfy the demands of uppity minority groups.

5. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

4. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

3. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

2. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

1. METEORS and VOLCANOES.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Joneko on Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:27 pm

I assure you love, nearly everyone here is well aware of the kind of attitudes people can have, and not all are quiet about it just because they're your friends. I had an online friend of several years tell me to burn in hell when I came out, and in college a friend spent a Habitat Collegiate Build trip with me telling me that I would find Jesus.

If you feel comfortable, I would suggest standing up for gay rights. Granted not everyone will accept the arguments and it WILL feel like talking to a brick wall. But in that case, you might want to point out that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to violate the civil rights of others, whether they agree with their lifestyles or not.

And godhelpyou if they bring up bestiality or incest.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  greven on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:35 am

Joneko wrote:
And godhelpyou if they bring up bestiality or incest.

Who do you think I am? I have some decensy!

(scratching it off the list Razz)
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  tara on Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:48 am

Tell them if they can't respect people and their decisions that they should at least respect you and your decisions. Ask them to not use that kind of language in your presence. Let them know you don't like it, and remind them if it slips. I have an acquaintance who is racist, homophobic, a bigot (he called one of my students, an 8 year old boy, a 'fag') and I told him I didn't appreciate his language, and he said he wouldn't use that language when he was around ME, anyway siiiigh. That may be the most you can do, but at least it's something.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  ReiDavidson on Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:06 am

Most people say things like that out of fear of what they don't understand. I don't know, if she'd actually read some of the articles on here, maybe she'd understand that we're just people.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Emilyelizabethx on Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:20 pm

I had homophobic friends too. Unfortunately I haven't got the sense or the stability to remain silent and so lectured them whenever I could :p
I think you should make it clear what your views are and tell them if they want to be homophobic, can they at least not do it around you. That way, if they are, it gives you perfect justification for lecturing them when they are in front of you. Very Happy
I just like giving lectures XD
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  greven on Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:46 pm

Emilyelizabethx wrote:I had homophobic friends too. Unfortunately I haven't got the sense or the stability to remain silent and so lectured them whenever I could :p
I think you should make it clear what your views are and tell them if they want to be homophobic, can they at least not do it around you. That way, if they are, it gives you perfect justification for lecturing them when they are in front of you. Very Happy
I just like giving lectures XD

I have told them to keep it down at least around me, and it usually only comes up when we are discussion politics, as for the small things I dont want to stop them. I have no intentions of being mister buzz kill because I get offended when they call something gay.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Joneko on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:15 pm

greven wrote:
Joneko wrote:
And godhelpyou if they bring up bestiality or incest.

Who do you think I am? I have some decensy!

(scratching it off the list Razz)

Oh gosh, no no no, I didn't mean it like that. It's a common response among very homophobic individuals, I've found, when you give them the argument that their opinions shouldn't affect one's civil rights. They respond with well, if they want to marry each other, I guess we should let someone marry their dog or their daughter too. I love when my SO is compared to a furry four-legged animal.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  greven on Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:44 pm

Joneko wrote:
greven wrote:
Joneko wrote:
And godhelpyou if they bring up bestiality or incest.

Who do you think I am? I have some decensy!

(scratching it off the list Razz)

Oh gosh, no no no, I didn't mean it like that. It's a common response among very homophobic individuals, I've found, when you give them the argument that their opinions shouldn't affect one's civil rights. They respond with well, if they want to marry each other, I guess we should let someone marry their dog or their daughter too. I love when my SO is compared to a furry four-legged animal.

Hmm I read they as you for some reason.

They havent brought up that argument before me. I would love them to though, That could be all kinds of fun. Pulling a bullshit move like that on me is pretty much like walking right off the side of a cliff, they will end.


I actually do have some, stranger than life opinions on the topics mentioned here, but I dont think I should start talking about that if I know what is good for me.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Jase on Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:26 am

Fly Hue wrote:In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country.
...Ironically, that's the common opinion on America here. After all, the negative opinion of gays is from the overriding Christian feeling; there's still a level of racism (not all of it by whites, either) and different religious groups also get a certain amount of negativity. This is all reflective of a xenophobic attitude that the majority of Christianity has adopted. You even have "In God We Trust" on your currency. I know it varies, and I know a large amount of what I think is true is stereotypical of the country and that it might not be as bad as it is. But yeah- that's the stereotype here.
[/tangent]

tara wrote:Tell them if they can't respect people and their decisions that they should at least respect you and your decisions. Ask them to not use that kind of language in your presence. Let them know you don't like it, and remind them if it slips. I have an acquaintance who is racist, homophobic, a bigot (he called one of my students, an 8 year old boy, a 'fag') and I told him I didn't appreciate his language, and he said he wouldn't use that language when he was around ME, anyway siiiigh. That may be the most you can do, but at least it's something.
...What she said! 8D Seriously, if they're generally decent people as you've made out, they should respect that. If they don't, it means they don't respect YOU, and I'd seriously start asking questions as to why you still call a person who can't respect you "friend".

As for the whole "marry your animal" thing... Yes, animals clearly have the same rights as an adult human. xD For that matter, children are also as rational as one. (Although, on that point, many adults are less rational than children.) But yeah. It's supposed to be between two "consenting people who are in their right minds". Technically, there's nothing in what I just said to stop incest, but for that we can bring up science and genetics. If nature was okay with two people who are related creating a baby, it wouldn't lead to the baby being... well, often less than healthy. (We likes the gene pool varied, mmkay? xD)

Greven- I don't see a problem with you bringing up your unusual opinions, as long as it's for the purpose of discussion and you don't try to force it on us. Which, from what I've seen of you, I wouldn't expect at all, so no worries.

...Today, the sun is shining. This is rare. I shall now go and be cat-like in a stray sunbeam, kthxbye.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Fly Hue on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:17 pm

That stereotype sounds relatively accurate. It is pretty true, even though we have "freedom of religion", it still doesn't protect you from strong negative backlash. For example, I'm an eclectic and I enjoy researching a wide variety of religions. And having done the proper studying, I can honestly say that the philosophies that LaVey came up with make a lot of sense and for the most part encourage goodness and a healthy way of life. Though my 'personal religion' does include quite a lot of Catholicism, as well as a few others, I have decided to put some of LaVey's teachings to heart. I feel that Satanism really is overblown as a 'bad' religion and that our society can do with laying off the negative stereotypes. If you look at the issue from far away, it's probably the worst portrayed anything, especially in the film industry (as much as I love those movies). And that is.... sort of an extreme example now that I think of it. But valid, so whatever.
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Felicity on Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:34 pm

There are some other posts that said this better, but yes, you should stand up for your beliefs when your friends start badmouthing GLBT people. Not for every little thing (I'd never get anything done if I tried to talk to everyone who said "That's gay."), but if you're having a debate or discussion on the topic of GBLT, then yes. If they don't listen, then, well, at least you tried. (Or try again and again until they get it.) At the very least, your friends might stop putting down GLBT around you - it doesn't exactly solve the problem, but then they'll be aware that there are people in the world who are in support of GLBT people without being one themselves. (I have actually met someone who believed that anyone who stood up for GLBT rights was gay; and that anyone who was straight would never support them. No )
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Jase on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:45 am

Fly Hue wrote:I feel that Satanism really is overblown as a 'bad' religion and that our society can do with laying off the negative stereotypes.
Well, God is seen as a benevolent ruler, and Satan as an evil, uh, thing. (I've been up for half an hour and have only had one cup of tea- I make no promises about my coherancy.)
But, for those of you who've read my sort of WIP comic called Chaos and Order, religion- or, more specifically, the role the Christian religion has taken in our society- was a huge influence for the background legend. (For those of you who haven't, hopefully I'll make some sense anyway.)
The Christian religion has become the enforcer of order; restricting growth and ensuring people's mindsets remain locked in the rules layed out by the religion. We have made a stupendous amount of growth in the past hundred years or so; but before that, things remained the same for some time. Homosexuality was just- well, often not even thought of, women were inferior to men, divorce and the breaking of a marraige was an atrocious sin, slavery was okay, etc etc etc. The only thing that can break the order enforced is- chaos. Often perceived to be evil, since he goes against the religion that's defined our society for some hundreds of years, Satan the rebel is an instrument of pure chaos- which has good and bad sides, the good being the open-mindedness that goes with it, but the bad- of course- is the lack of control, the poor behavoir, materialising as a lowering of morals and standards and a rise in crime.

TOTALLY off topic but it caught my interest, so... xD
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Re: Third party dealing with homophobic friends

Post  Fly Hue on Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:26 pm

Yes, clearly religion is a conversational soft spot for me too. I'm pretty sure I agree for the most part with your post. The whole chaos vs order thing. I see the Apostate Party as advocates for Liberty, and Heaven as a reinforcer for Righteousness. Both are good as long as one doesn't take too much dominance in one's life. It correlates with how some will refer to Satan as a necessary evil, only I can't help but see either side as opposing goods, not really evils. It's difficult for me to think anything evil, and more often a 'lack of goodness' where most everything possesses at least some goodness.
I used to not believe in evil at all, but then I started to challenge myself with real-world examples, so now I am less idealistic.
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