The Devils advocate: Incest

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The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:40 am

Incest is a form of sexual or emotional dependency of a family member, this dependency going beyond what is to be expected for family members, Love and/or physical lust are often a part of this.

It is a common misunderstanding that Incest is about a parent forcing their child to have some sort of sexual relations with them. This is not the case, that is what is known as pedophilic actions and possibly rape, yes it takes place inside the family, but it is still pedophilic actions before it is incest.

There are 2 arguments that continuously pop up against incest: Genetic diversity or rather lack of so and the myth of social and psychological problems it can bring.

Inbreed (lack of genetic diversity)
It is a proven fact that inbreed can lead to a weaker immune system and other defects for the children of close family parents. This is a fact and cannot be disputed, and I will not do any such thing, I will however point out that this is something that does not happen over one generation. A bloodline does not go from healthy to rotten in a single generation of incest, it happens over a period of at least 4 continuous generations where incest have lead to the next generation. While this is of course unfortunate it is also highly unlikely to happen.

Another thing makes this argument stand out as being quite ignorant, the main problem this argument talks about is how we should not bring any sickness onto the next generation, a rational and completely reasonable argument no doubt, but one that is ultimately flawed when viewed in a larger perspective.
Protecting the next generation is a noble cause, but should protecting the next generation from catching a cold really be more important than the individual freedom of our generation? As long as you look at incest as a isolated thing then the answer is yes, but if protecting the next generation is so important then we should also stop people with genetically inherited deceases from getting children should we not? The risk of these kinds of deceases hitting the next generation is far larger than the risk have ever been through incest, so what gives the them rights to poison the next generation? What about bloodlines with psychological problems? Or midgets, should they not be allowed to pass on their imperfect genetic code to the next generation? As soon as you put the risks for the next generation over the freedom of the current, you end up on one hell of a slippery slope.

Social and psychological problems.
Let me introduce you to 2 “couples” that I know, these two couple are: Eva and Karl, who are “in the middle of her twenties” and “quite a bit older”, as you may or may not realize this is a father and daughter.
and Stine and Martin, they are both between 16 and 20 and they are, as you should have figured out by now, brother and sister.
I will like to make it clear that I will reveal nothing more about them, that might reveal their actual identities, the names mentioned here are fakes. All the information I DO reveal I have been allowed to reveal by the couples in question.

Eva and Karl.
Eva is, to the outside world, a single with no interest in finding a husband, she has a large number of friends where only one or 2 of them knows what is going on between Eva and her father. She has a well paid job and is in any and all matters a completely normal woman.
Karl is a widower, and has been so for 10 years when his wife died in a car accident. He officially lives with his daughter Eva for “financial reasons”, he has a job as a house painter.
I found out about their involvement with each other through pure coincidence, I am acquainted to them but not in their inner circle of friends.
They are completely aware that what they are doing is wrong from a “moral standpoint” but they appear to be in genuine love with each other, something they themselves say is true. Their love goes “beyond that of family bonds” to use their words, they have no plans of getting kids as they would “complicate matters”. They simply hope to live their life together without any problems from authorities or the local community.

You should realize by now that both Eva and Karl are completely normal human beings, so why should these 2 people be forced to abandon their love for each other just because an ignorant taboo?

Stine and Martin.
Stine and Martin are both old enough for sexual activities according to Danish law. Stine and Martin are not in love or a serious relationship like that, instead they use sexual activities as a way of “having fun” (lacks a better term) and creating stronger bonds between them. They have been intimately involved for almost a year and they told their parents about it about half a year ago. While their parents are against the whole thing, they have eventually realized that Stine and Martin are not using each other to substitute other relationships outside each other, and that have eventually brought the parents to accept what is going on; as long as it is kept a secret, doesn’t get out of hand, and they take big time care about unwanted pregnancy.

I have met these people a few weeks ago on the internet, as I was finding information for this thread and they are really nice and intelligent people. I cannot for the life of me see why these 2 people should lose their bonding experience and loving time together because of a ignorant taboo created by people who doesn’t see the big picture.


So as you should be able to see from these examples the myth of people committing incest being stupid or mentally challenged. I can also swear that these people have no major social problems or psychological problems (that I know of) that are related to their incest.


Closing statement
If you have read all these points then I have no doubt that you will now have realized that Incest is not evil as it has been made out to be by the politicians and the media. It is flawed, I won’t deny that, there are problems with it, I won’t deny that, but it is not a sin, it is not a crime towards the next generation and it should not be forbidden as it is today.
Should we not learn to understand this thing, instead of shunning it and denying its existence like we do today? Should we not help and support these people who have found love within people they know best of all, instead of prosecuting them for finding the love we all seek, simply because we as a society cannot understand their desires? Where is the line drawn if we wont allow what we don’t understand? Will GLBT be next? Why not? It is the same thing, people finding love where the general public doesn’t think it should be found.
If you have read this up till now, then surely you must realize the truth in my words: Incest is not evil, it is as innocent as the people who commits this “crime”.

I rest my case.
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  ReiDavidson on Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:19 pm

(oh god please everyone realize that I argue for the sake of arguing and do not believe in what I'm saying here. XD)

Be all this evidence as it may, I have to protest on the idea that it's flawed. Incest is wrong, not from a genetic standpoint, but purely from a moral standpoint.

Let's look at your brother and sister couple. They are using incest as an excuse to have frequent sex. It's wrong to use sex like you might use a video game -- that is, for entertainment. Even if they are using protection, that doesn't change the fact that they are treating sex as something barely significant. They make it look like a joke when sex is supposed to be something beautiful and with someone you are in love with and want to spend the rest of your life with.

I think it should be mentioned that this is a common example of this time of person: A person who is amoral and simply in it for a fuck. There is no love here, just people manipulating other people who trust them to get out their more basic urges because it's convenient. Maybe a daughter believe her father when he tells her it's okay because he "loves" her, but I don't buy it for a moment. She has become a victim of someone's terrible manipulative mind.

And even if there is "love" between these people, that doesn't change the fact that it's amoral in the eyes of God. The bible, in more than one passage, declares that incest is wrong and punishable by hell if it's engaged in with no remorse. I know you might not believe that there's anything wrong with promiscuous sex and manipulation, but the bible has many other things to say on that matter.

If you need proof just look at all these passages from Leviticus.

A man who sleeps with his daughter is probably very ill and not unlike a child molester. A person must be psychologically sick to want to engage in incest because it has been scientifically proven that two people who are related cannot be physically attracted to one another. The pheromones you and a family member put out make you not want to see your family as a sexual object. Pheromones are how you tell the difference between family and lovers. It's our body's way of saying that incest is WRONG.

So the bible disagrees with incest and your own biology disagrees with incest. So how can you say it's right to have sex with someone of your own family?
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:27 am

(BE WARNED! This post might be rather harsh.)

I love Candy, I love how it tastes, but eating it is wrong from a biological standpoint, it is bad for my body, but we dont outlaw candy, or booze for that reason.

The moral standpoint? Should we really base our current lives on the writings of a century old book? Life as we know it has changed since then, we have gained new knowledge and we are smarter than we were back then.

Morals are created for practical reasons, we dont steal so that we can establish property and the consept of ownership, something that creates a stable society.
We dont like interacial couples as they spawn "half breed" a moral code that was the basis for the third reich.
We do not fully endorce the homosexuals because they were useless in bringing the bloodline futher.

Do you really want your life to be controlled by a book that tells you things like this:


Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


In the eyes of god YOU are the abominations, you are the ones who shall not inherit the heavens, and yet you turn to this book for guidance? Look in a mirror, by passing judgement onto these people you pass judgement onto yourself.



The youth of today is degenerate, they see sex as an activity of fun rather than a moment of love.
Neither Stine nor Martin treats sex as something on par with a videogame, but we cannot deny the fact that everyone have needs, needs that must be fulfilled, why should doing it with someone who we know, trust and love be a crime, while doing it alone and in secret is accepted. Why should we be forced to hide something that everyone knows happens? Even within the walls of our own house we must keep it a secret, so should we truly not open up and share this with the ones we love. Why not change this nessecity to a time of joy and pleasure?
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  ReiDavidson on Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:47 am

(man, I was totally trying to argue not like a gay person and then you had to go and say I was. XD)

Candy is not bad for you. It's good for you sometimes in small amounts. As is alcohol. It helps the heart. But I also really don't think that you can compare food and drink with a moral issue like incest.

First of all, there is nearly always a victim involved in incest who is being manipulated into a relationship. There is only yourself as a victim if you eat candy or drink alcohol.

Same with homosexuality. One assumes that if two people of the same gender are engaging in sexual activity then it is consensual unless a.) one of them is underage, or b.) One of them is incapable of making sound decisions for themselves. If those two factors are present, then it's just as bad.

Also, homosexuality is common in nature, but incest is not. Incest only occurs between animals who are genetically equipped to interbreed, like cats. Cats can interbreed over many generations without any negative effects. However dogs cannot, and incest between dogs only occurs in minimal situations, such as a dog going into heat and the only available mate being a blood relative.

However, we are better than animals and smarter, so we should use common sense with the matter. And common sense says you don't have sex with someone of blood relation. I know the weakening of genes may not bother you, but the more socially acceptable incest is, the worse off the genes of the human species will be.

And you've yet to argue against the moral standpoint of it. You've merely said that since we drink alcohol and eat candy that two wrongs make a right and we should be allowed to have incest. And then you commented on a book negatively that many people base their life around and that has held strong for centuries as being a model of moral compassing.

But if you put the bible aside, it's still morally wrong. There is corruption involved in every incestual relationship. I refuse to believe that two people of blood relation can be in love in the same way a non-related couple can. If defies nature and common sense. Like I said, at least homosexuality can be said to be consensual and that there can truly be love involved in the relationship. With incest it's an excuse to have debauched sex either by manipulating those who love you as family into believing its okay or by deciding that sex is more accessable if you have it with a family member.
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:44 am

(I am trying to win an argument for incest. I have to take everything I can get here. Also I would like to apologize beforehand for this post, I might say some… less than nice stuff along the way)

Sex is good for you; this is something that has been proven time and time again. It is not only healthy to ejaculate; it is also a good source of exercise.

I can say the same thing about relationships where two people who are not related are together. Almost every relationship, before the "perfect match" consists of 1 person who loves the partner more than the partner loves him or her back.
Why is this so different? Because they are not related this manipulation is so much worse? Should these people not be able to see through possible lie, far easier with their family than with complete strangers?

Same with homosexuality. One assumes that if two people of the same gender are engaging in sexual activity then it is consensual unless a.) one of them is underage, or b.) One of them is incapable of making sound decisions for themselves. If those two factors are present, then it's just as bad.

I am not sure where you are going with this; if anything this supports my standpoint rather than yours.
Just like with homosexuals the idea that there must be "a victim" is a myth, a convenient truth we cover things up with so we don’t have to deal with feelings we are unable to understand.


You say argue that incest is not normal in nature, but should we really be bound by genes and heritage? We have conquered the sky, we have discovered every inch of this planet, and yet you will have us stop what we are doing because we are the only ones who does it? Listen to yourself woman, we have made advances in medicine unheard of, we have cured diseased thought incurable just a few centuries ago, as we speak there is work being done that will allow us to conquer DEATH itself.
It is a proven fact that while it takes roughly 5 generations to bring the gene quality down to a noticeable level, it only takes 2 generations to bring it back up to "tip top shape". So there will not be a decrease in the general gene quality as you fear.


Yes I degrade the book of god, for while it is a book that we can all agree have helped establish society as we see it today, it also an old book, a book that was written so many years ago that knowledge have long since passed faith. Why cling to a book for moral support in this day and age? I was raised without the bible, I was raised with knowing nothing more about the bible than what I saw in cartoons and heard on Christmas eve. Did I end up without morals? A man with no idea of right and wrong? No I did not, the human being has long since evolved beyond the point where we need a supreme being to keep us in check, we can establish right and wrong without the bait of eternal life.


I refuse to believe that two people of blood relation can be in love in the same way a non-related couple can.

And I refuse to believe that two people of the same gender can love in he same way as a non-related couple. This has nothing to do with what you and I believe, for we are not in any position to make ourselves judges of feelings we don’t understand. I would not ask a homophobic to discus the love of a gay couple, and i will not ask one who does not share feelings in the family to understand the love between these people.
Why can two girls find love in each other and not a brother and a sister? Where is your proof of this, where does all this "knowledge" you claim to have come from?
The fact that you think you can break down all of the incest couples into 2 groups proves that you are as narrow minded as most of the people who are against homosexuals for the same reasons. If you are unable to understand that the human mind, and the feelings it can spawn are more complicated than something you can describe in 2 options then I feel sad for you, because then you must truly be narrow-minded.
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  ReiDavidson on Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:11 pm

Hogawd. Anyone else got an answer? XD Cause I don't think I can convincingly argue anymore.
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My thoughts and questions.

Post  eSilva on Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:10 am

I really wish I could help you Rei. BUT the BIBLE actually favors Incest.

NOW THAT IS IRONY!!!!

lol.

Everything in the Bible is based on circumstance and the situation. The bible has most certainly become outdated in certain aspects. However Greven, you cannot deny that the bible has not affected the morals of societies (your morals included). Murder is still not accepted. Tell me which book that predates the bible says murder is ok? I have yet to find one!
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A New Challenger Approaches...

Post  greven on Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:29 am

(Good to see some new blood here eSilva Very Happy )


One could argue that the north mythology did, one could also argue the same about the mayan culture, and to some exstent even the christian god demands or PERFORMS murder from time to time.

In north mythology you could only go to valhalla if you were a fierce warrior. The mayan sacrificed humans to their gods (or is that the inka? Cant tell the difference.). GOD demanded human sacrifise = murder on more than one occasion

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."



"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

And this is but one incident where God demands human death to be pleased.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

And what of the death of the first born in egypt? God took the lives of inocent children for crimes they had no knowledge of.





YES, the bible has effected the moral as we know it today. It has helped create guidelines for wish to help us live a life of relative peace. But as you say yourself the bible is outdated by decades. There are still countries living acording to their religius books, these countries are considered dangerous, even cruel at times, and are known to have little respect for human lives.
The bible is old, too old to be used as anything but a cane for the morally cripled, it is used the same way as santaclaus. If you are good you get presents/go to heaven, if you are evil you get coal/go to hell. It is an adult farytale with a moral not far from that of the ugly duckling (a duckling turns into a swan): If you are pure of heart you are rewardet.
It is a book that contains a dragon and a fair princess, and to save the princess you must endure trials and even the ultimate temtations (dragon) only then can you get into heaven (get the princess)
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Chellenger? Don't think so.

Post  eSilva on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:12 pm

I'm very sorry to have caused you to write such a long thread Greven but I made a typo. Embarassed

My question was actually;


"Tell me which book that predates the bible says murder is NOT ok?"


I'm sorry for the inconvenience but sometimes I just think faster then I can type~! silent
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:39 pm

No problem Silva, but my argument still stands. The Bibel says that murder is wrong, but it also says that one should permit murder for even the slightest of offences. Like I said: My argument still stands.

If one wanted to argue one could say that the north mythology is against murder, I wont go into details because it gets tricky but the short version is that: killing is permitted if it is war, but killing for personal gain is not permitted.
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Defending Incest through the use of The Bible

Post  eSilva on Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:58 pm

Maybe I should tell you my personal standing on the matter in question.

Like every other "thing" in the world that has ever been questioned/doubted, Incest is not black and white. That being said, I am not for nor am I against Incest. I agree that there are situations where it can be just like anyones else's sense of Love for another person but I also agree that there is the possibility that one of the two parties or both, are psychologically unsound.

You only mentioned heterosexual-incest couples. What of two Brothers? What of two Sisters, a Father and Son or Mother and Daughter? I assume that what you said in defense holds the same for homosexual-incest couples.

Greven, you did not get my point at all or maybe you didn't understand. I did not ask you to repeat to me what the bible says about murdering and killing people.

I asked you to tell me the name of a book that predated the bible that said murder is wrong.

Those civilizations ( by the way, it is the Maya as well as the Aztecs who had human sacrifice) killed and murdered, yes. Northern Myth, yes. However even if Northern Mythology (your Denmark is part of this, correct?) says that killing is permitted in battle but killing and murder are not the same.
Killing an animal is not considered morally wrong in self defense (right?) yet to kill an animal with the intention of ending its life along side with premeditation of it's death IS considered murder. Would you not say that killing another person for the sake of protecting ones self and loved ones is justified? That would apply in both the bible and northern mythology as well as in todays day.

You're really only helping me point out that pre-columbian civilizations and the like that are said to be older then the jews, moabs, and ammonites, did not believe that murder was wrong. In fact you basically just told me they believed killing but not murdering was perfectly acceptable.

So I ask again. Greven, do YOU think murder is wrong?

Find me another book that says it is wrong like the bible does and if it's beliefs have made as much an impact now as the bible has when concerning death.

I think, that if you think murder is wrong, the Bible has most indefinitely affected your morals. (That is ONLY if the bible is the only book to say that murder (not killing) is wrong)

(btw one could also argue that the christian god exits outside of mans laws and meaning and so as creator does not preform murder- it only applies to man)

Another thing. The bible is NOT the only book out there that says one will be rewarded for good deeds and punished for bad ones.
There are many many many religions that also use the fairy tale story arc. So it's really just one of many. It's one of many books used as a moral compass however it's simply been the most influential.


Before I get anymore sidetracked. My whole point for bringing up murder in the first place was to ask you if you believed murder was morally wrong and if you could find another book like the bible that said it was wrong as well so as to provide something that favors the discontinuation of basing morals on an outdated and flawed book.

The Bible says:

It is ok to kill a non-believer
It is ok to stone your wife to death
It is ok to sell your daughter into slavery as well as offer her to men
It is a sin to eat selfish

and here is the kicker; Incest is ok if it used to promote the advance of spiritual purity. (<--- that; I concluded myself)


So back to Incest shall we?

Greven, this book is actually helping you out. Here's why

In the book of Genesis there are THREE occasions where incest was used as a mean to not only purify Man but to create Man.

First Occasion; Adam and Eve

( I'm a fraternal twin btw and my name really is Eve (( Eva is the correct spelling for my name as my parents used the Spanish pronunciation)) while I have my twin brother who is Adam- WEIRD right??? My parents sure F****D me up!)

Theoretically, God created Man with only two humans; Adam and Eve. They gave birth to two sons, one of which was murdered by his brother. How did the remaining son father children? There are two theories I can think of as to explain how Cain procreated. Both theories have to do with Incest. Dun dun dun...

First Theory: Cain and his Mother, Eve.

If cain needed a mate, there were no other females other then his mother. Therefore he would have had no other choice then to lie with his mother to father his own children, right? I think so.

Second Theory: Adam and Eve had more children.

It is said that A&E had more children after Cain and Abel. So could it be possible that the remaining son, Cain, had intercourse with a sister, niece, grandniece, great grandniece? I think so.

Second Occasion; Lot and his two Daughters

Lot lived in Sodom and Gomorrah. He was a god fearing man who happened to be in a pickle. Before the christian god destroyed this city so the myth goes, he decided to save Lot, his wife, and two of his daughters. His wife was lost and so just he and his daughters remained.
His two daughters unfortunately believed that they were the last people on the planet and so to save the human race they decided to lie with their father by getting him drunk. Suspiciously these two daughters both became pregnant by their father in just two nights. The sons were named Moab and Ben-Ammi. The daughters and Lot later found out that another city not far was inhabited. The children were a result of incest and the obvious influence of Sodom on the daughters. Sodom was, as the myth goes, a city of sin.


Third Occasion; Noah and the Flood

After however many years had passed the Christian God decided that the world was too sinful to allow to exist. And so he let rains fall for 40 days and 40 nights covering the entire world and killing everyone in it. Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives manage to survive. So in total, eight people survive the flood. If we considered Noah and his wife as first generation and their sons with their wives as second generation by the FOURTH generation, incest would have occurred. God also tells them to be "Fruitful and Multiply"


Greven, Incest isn't wrong. It's never been wrong. It's just that now it is seen as UNNECESSARY*. HOWEVER if what the Bible said actually happened DID happen, then the entire human race that consists right now, IS A HUGE INCEST GENE POOL!

Think about it...if those people really did repopulate the world then you and I are related! We're related to everyone else and it's no wonder ppl call each other "brother so and so" and "sister so and so" and not just because Christians say they are all Gods children. lol

*unnecessary in the sense that there are so many humans in the world that there is no reason for why anyone should be incestuous.
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  ReiDavidson on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:23 am

I think your supposed to argue against incest. XD;;
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  eSilva on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:49 am

lol. Really now??

I'm just giving my thoughts. I'm not for incest, like I said before.

But other then defective offspring...in addition to that I found an article that said this about Darwin's book "The Variation of Animals and Plants Under Domestication" (who by the way married his first cousin Emma)
Darwin has a chapter "On the Good Effects of Crossing, and On the Evil Effects of Inbreeding." He surveys the experience of animal breeders in discovering the bad effects of inbreeding. And he wonders whether natural selection could have shaped a natural aversion to incest among human beings. "Although there seems to be no strong inherited feeling in mankind against incest, it seems possible that men during primeval times may have been more excited by strange females than by those with whom they habitually lived. . . . If any such feeling formerly existed in man, this would have led to a preference for marriages beyond the nearest kin, and might have been strengthened by the offspring of such marriages surviving in greater numbers."


So biologically it could be that human beings have created a biological aversion to incest which is why many of us respond with disgust at the idea of incest.

So there Rei. There's my argument against Incest. lol
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:57 pm

(you are not meant to tell us your own opinion, you are simply to argue against incest, nothing more nothing less.)

Lol. I am afraid YOU are not getting MY point here Very Happy

I agree with you that there is no book that predates the bible and dislikes murder, I agree that murder is wrong, and I agree that the Bible has helped shape society as we know it. I have never denied that, but I do believe that we as a species has evolved beyond the need of divine guidance, I believe that we dont need a fear of hell to keep us in line, or a loving god to give our life meaning. I believe that we have reached a point in time where the human race must throw away these remnants of the past and stand against foolish hopes of salvation through a divine heaven, and I believe it is time we leave the womb of mother nature and step forward through history as the species who shaped its own existance, with its own power without anyone but ourselves to set the course. (that was a pretty good quote I made right there)

Yes: I do believe the same things go for homosexual incest couples, but this forum being what it is I kind of thought that went without saying.
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  eSilva on Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:36 pm

OKOK ...I'll go along with the game geeeeez. xD


In order for the human race to continue being the fittest of the fit with the best developed intelligence we need to have a much larger genetic cesspool. Incest is a hindrance. As long as there was no procreation


there. argue on that! lol
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:45 am

I hate to be a bitch here eSilva, but that argument is long gone Very Happy
If you had bothered to read through the giant wall of text above your post you could find out that the gene argument died a long time ago Very Happy
And I am not really in the mood of repeating myself on the matter.
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This was fun.

Post  eSilva on Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:52 pm

I did read 'em. Razz Please don't assume I didn't bother to read them. Very Happy

I was more bringing up that if we want humans to reach that goal of being the species that made it's way on it's own we need the diversity xD

Anyway it was fun coming up with things to say and the research was a learning experience. (I wonder what other book does say murder is wrong...hmm...time for a little more research)
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:01 pm

But if we rely on diverse genes to help us progress will we then truly have made it on our own? Will we not be a slave of nature then? Should we not instead figure out a way in wich we could bend the genes to our will instead of trying to work in the way they see fit?
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  eSilva on Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:04 pm

It is because of our genes that we have even gotten as far as we have. Our genes gave us our capability of thought, conscience and self awareness. We are animals. We cannot escape the course of nature.
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:45 am

But we have long since escaped nature in many ways, we defy gravity and fly like birds, we have even left the comfort of our own planet for the far reaches of space.
Or what about the world of medicine? Gene manipulation is being developed to allow the cultivation of human organs outside the human body. Everyday we step beyond what was believed to be our boundaries, we can respect and thank mother nature for giving us the genes that have brought us this far. But our genes are not perfect, and they never will be, but we are creating the tools to make them perfect, without having to worry about who we breed with.

We are animals, but he have long since escaped the course of nature.
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WINNER

Post  eSilva on Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:01 am

I so concede

****WINNER****

GREVEN.

Why: Because no one posted after him and debated against it!

It's been longer then a week now!
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:39 am

Thank you eSilva Smile
I didnt want to call myself out as the winner so I just didnt say anything Razz
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  eSilva on Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:26 pm

lol. No problem Greven!

It was fun!
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  greven on Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:10 pm

Yeah I had a blast that is for sure Very Happy
And you sure as hell put up a better fight than the game I was playing on a danish site, same topic and 6 different people who couldnt figure out a single good argument. I mean you guys nearly had me more than once and if you go over my arguments bit by bit then you might spot some very weak spots, I was basicly just holding up a big sheet of paper with a wall drawn on it, just hoping that no one would think of punching a hole in it Smile
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

Post  eSilva on Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:04 am

lol. It was fun. I mean I never really and still don't care about this topic much. But I like doing research and so it was fun. But now that you mentioned a weak point I'm like "Damn!". Razz
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Re: The Devils advocate: Incest

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