Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

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Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Skyangel on Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:09 pm

'PRAYERS FOR BOBBY'

This is the film I saw recently which raised some very interesting viewpoints about the way the bible is understood. The story is based on the TRUE STORY of Mary Griffith; a devoutly religious mother who helped drive her son to suicide by being unable to accept that he was homosexual. After his death she was unable to find peace with god and began to question the teachings of the bible. For those who have not seen the film, this is the part of the script I found the most interesting, and which I felt offered gay people some peace of mind. Personally I always say that there must be worst crimes in god's eyes than two people of the same sex loving each other in any way that makes them both happy. People don't choose to be born gay any more than they would choose to be blind or any other mistake of birth, so why would he condemn anyone for something of his own doing. Personally I don't think he does, only narrow minded people do it for him.

Anyway here is the script:

After Bobby has died his mum finds a bookmark with this church address on it, and goes along to check it out.(The church Bobby was attending was called the 'Metropolitan Community Church btw )


Script: P= priest

Mum: I need answers! Is homosexuality an unforgiveable sin? Leviticus 18/22 says, if a man lies with another man it is an abomination.

P: An abomination in that time did not mean a sin, it meant unclean.
Leviticus also goes on to say that eating shellfish is also an abomination, or mixing fabrics.

Mum: Leviticus 20/13 says if a man lies with another man they both shall be put to death!

P: It also says the same thing about an adulterer or a child that disobeys their parents, and we certainly don't interpret that scripture literally.
In deutronomy 22 if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night then she shall be taken to her father's house and stoned to death.

Mum: So what do you tell people that come here...gay people? that homosexuality is okay? that it is permissable in God's eyes?

P: I tell them what I believe to be the truth...that god loves them as they are.

Mum: God's vengeance is great!

P: So is his compassion.

Mum: You should not teach that homosexuality is okay..It's NOT what the bible says! It just confuses them more!

P: Mrs Griffiths, if you would like to come back during the week to discuss this, my door is open... but not to be blamed!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Second visit:

Mum: But what about Sodom and Gomorrah? God punished the sin of homosexuality, how do you explain that?

P: Many scholars think the sin was greed and not homosexuality, and it wasn't labelled homosexuality until years after it was written.

Mum: Do you have answers to all these things.. just to justify being that way?
So you think it's okay to interpret the bible any way you want?!!

P: No of course not!.. But the bible was written and interpreted by mortal men, and many of those interpretations were reflections of the time in which they lived.

Mum; So you feel completely free to question it ? I think it's blasphemous!

P: I don't think God minds questions. he might not be thrilled with all the answers. I think blind faith is just as dangerous as none at all.

Mum: Well I've never questioned my faith, ...I've never had reason to!

P: Sometimes to question it, helps you find a deeper faith.

Mum: Bobby stopped coming here..I think the reason was.. he couldn't never allow himself to feel worthy of God's love. and we didn't help.


--------------------------------------------------------
NEXT VISIT:

Mother:
Homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuals are doomed to spend eternity in hell. If they wanted to change they could be healed of their evil ways. If they would turn away from temptation, they could be normal again. If only they would try and try harder. It doesn't work. These are the things I said to my son Bobby when I found ou he was gay.When he told me he was homosexual.. my world fell apart. I did everything I could to cure him of his sickness. Eight months ago, my son jumped off a bridge and killed himself. I deeply regret my lack of knowledge about gay and lesbian people. I see that everything I was taught and told was bigotry and dehumanizing slander. If i had investigated beyond what i was told...if i had just listened to my son, when he poured his heart out to me; I would not be standing here today before you filled with regret.
I believe that God was pleased with my son's kind and loving spirit. in God's eyes kindness and love are what it's all about. I didn't know that each time I echoed eternal damnation and referred to gay people as sinners that I was driving him closer and closer to despair.

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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  tommym on Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:44 pm

Dear Sky, You opened a large can of worms.I am having trouble getting True to Our Hearts on house computer, Hope to post on Simply Sarah later And here maybe tomorrow
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Fly Hue on Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:12 pm

Does anyone here read 'Jack'? I'm not usually a fan of furry comics, but I feel Jack is pretty well written and better so, it puts a PLEASANT, optimistic spin on religious theory. Anyhow, I've always loved the argument that the writer used on these pages: [Link 1],[Link 2].

It's pretty much my exact sentiments on the subject. I am a religious person, though not exclusively Christian nor any other religion. But I do believe in God, and I believe having a relationship with God is important... So I do consider myself religious.
Anyhow, I do believe that are valuable things to be learned from the bible, but we need to search for those things and not take the entire thing for sacred truth. I believe that God has intentionally used men to spread lies about him in order to test one's faith. It's easy to be told "This is what God says. This is right. Everything else is wrong." It's something entirely different to go out and DISCOVER God for yourself, to -yes- QUESTION HIM, and find what real truth is by exploring the world and what you see around you, and whatever you discover, that is real faith- having the courage to find the truth when many others who are simply listening and not questioning will believe otherwise.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Emilyelizabethx on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:57 am

What really really annoys me is how the Bible says lots of other things- like:

The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
— Proverbs 22:7

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
— 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
— 1 Timothy 2:11-14

He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
— Proverbs 13:24

Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.
— Proverbs 20:30

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
— Proverbs 23:13-14

And yet people ignore all that and focus on some mistranslations!!! Okay, some of the above were probably mistranslations as well, but if people seem to be so in to following mistranslations, why not go the whole hog and beat your kids, and control your wife if you're so damn intent on following even the stuff that isn't clearly set out?
I don't mean to offend anyone- I don't mean all the Christians, of course, just the homophobic ones like in the Westboro Baptist Church. The Bible was written two thousand or so years ago and yet they're swinging it around like its a legitimate doccument and shove their vile homophobia into other people's faces. They don't give a crap if people go to hell or not, they just can't stand their own sexuality and so have to ruin other people's with their trash.
Organised Religion has pretty much spoilt Religion itself. I really feel for all the Christians and Jews, and JWs, and Muslims, etc out there who are let down by these few nasty individuals, and lied to by some aspects of the church (not all churches) Religion should be a direct communication between you and your God. It should be personal.
I'm an Athiest-Agnostic, but I've had a difficult time with Religion because it's not accepted in my family or my community. I explored Religion when I was younger, Christianity and Judaism, and was pretty much laughed at and ridiculed by my family. I always got As in RE and was shouted at for getting As in that subject and Bs in Science. But despite this, I've generally felt and still feel that there's something out there. It is really strong sometimes. But I've learnt and agreed with Athiesm too much now, to believe in anything in an organized Religious sense. I think if there is a God, s/he is very very different to what we think. I also have a bit of a Spiritual side and think there's so much to the Universe we don't know, so much we can't see, so we can't say for sure things DON'T exist.
I've always struggled with my spiritual side and my Athiest side. It really confuses me and hurts me sometimes when I mention something vaguely Spirtual only to have it knocked down by my family. You can and do get Religious and Spiritual Marxists, but its very rare and it gets looked down upon.
But I do have a grandma who's a Marxist and a Quaker, and we have lengthy discussions about spirituality. Very Happy So its not all bad news.
Sorry for my rant. This subject just really gets to me. Crying or Very sad
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Fly Hue on Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:21 am

Westboro Baptist Church? Was that the church that was protesting outside of inauguration day? I saw a video of those protests and it made me cry. :( The part that GOT to me was when there was a quite likely gay man, and he was shouting back to someone with a "God hates fags" sign, saying "Is that so? Because-- what I was taught-- was that God would LOVE me.... No matter what!", and the woman just kept screaming "No, God will never love you," etc. All I know was that most of those people came from a single Baptist church.

Aaaand This quote: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
— 1 Timothy 2:11-14"

This reminds me of Paradise Lost, I guess it should anger me, now that I think of it, but I just found it so funny when it got to Adam and Eve. Their conversation was all flowery and 17th century poetry and stuff, but it still went along the lines of, 'Oh Eve, you're so beautiful and submissive. I love how submissive you are.'
'Yes Adam, I'll do anything you tell me to. You are my master, and that's not idolatry because your master is God.'

No, I still find it funny. Eve is an idiot.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Jase on Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:40 am

...Westboro Baptist Church was meant to come to my town a couple of weeks ago, but the leaders were banned from England instead! xD

But yeah- as I said in a comment on SS- "...The Bible also says it's a sin to break a marraige ('till death do you part and all that), to have sex outside of marraige- oh, and to work on the Sabbath.
Personally, I think it's like using a two-thousand year old book on medicine for all our medical needs. The Bible is outdated; our society has changed so much that you can't use it the way it was meant. After all, in that time, marraige was the be-all and end-all of relationships, women were largely seen as "property", slavery was okay (I believe) and so on.
I mean- it says in the Bible that if a man rapes a woman, and the woman doesn't cry for help and get it, they must BOTH be put to death, because it's the woman's fault she didn't manage to attract the attention to stop the whole thing. I think if you're going to take one part of the Bible literally, you have to take it ALL literally- and there's a lot of bad in there.

The message that's so often overlooked is that Jesus loves everyone and essentially wanted everyone to get along. But of course, that doesn't work very well as a controlling device, does it...?"

The Bible was written BY men. Not by God, and not by Jesus. By MEN. And most of mankind wants power and to control.
Thus- Bible.

I believe in God. But I think the Bible is a load of crap written for men to suit their own ends. (My personal opinion.)
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  ReiDavidson on Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:02 pm

All passages in the bible concerning homosexuality are either made invalid due to a.) the time period it was written in, b.) the things written around it, or c.) it has less to do with homosexuality than people think it does.

There are even a few passages that suggest some figures in the bible were gay, ooooh.

But I think we are all preaching to the choir (*giggle*) because none of us are going to argue in favor of the bible condemning homosexuality.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Felicity on Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:08 pm

Jase wrote:The Bible was written BY men. Not by God, and not by Jesus. By MEN. And most of mankind wants power and to control.

Actually I remember seeing a program on the discovery channel in which they found some "early drafts" of the bible in some caves somewhere in Europe.

Anyway, one of the only useful messages in the bible is that God loves everyone, no matter what.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  ReiDavidson on Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:31 am

Well said.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Emilyelizabethx on Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:52 am

Felicity wrote:
Jase wrote:The Bible was written BY men. Not by God, and not by Jesus. By MEN. And most of mankind wants power and to control.

Actually I remember seeing a program on the discovery channel in which they found some "early drafts" of the bible in some caves somewhere in Europe.

Anyway, one of the only useful messages in the bible is that God loves everyone, no matter what.

Alot of the Bible took stuff from other religions too, like Islam, Wicca and Paganism, Judaism (well, Jesus was a Jew!) and even ancient religions like Mesopotamian and stuff like that.
The bible is full of loads of good stuff as well as bad, which people tend to forget, I think. About loving one another and 'forgiving the sinner' etc.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Felicity on Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:25 am

Exactly! It's either "all of the Bible is good" or "all of the Bible is bad." But it's both!
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Jase on Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:06 pm

Genesis 19- Blast it, I am NOT writing this one out.
This one is debatable, but a pair of angels went to stay at a city called Sodom. (I'm sure the name will sound familiar.) A man named Lot insisted they stayed at his house, and after dark, his neighbours crowded around the house and told him to bring out the "men" so they may have intercourse with them.
Shockingly- because, you know, this NEVER HAPPENS in the Bible- God then levelled the city.
Of course, one could argue that it was more the fact that the neighbours wanted to have sex with the angels (who they thought were men) regardless of what the "men" thought of it.

Leviticus 18:22 states, "do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination."
Pretty clear, neh?

Leviticus 20:13 also states, "And when a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them."
Death penalty for teh gay! But it's okay, it's also the death penalty for adultery (and the adulterer), described a couple of passages earlier. So really, most of the world should be dead. xD

Romans 1:26 says, "...for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed with their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene..." (goes on to essentially say they'll reap their "reward.")
Definately not liking the gay, there. Not saying not to do it, but I think it's safe to say it's not considered good. xD

1 Corinthians 6:9 (irony!) lists people who won't get into heaven; "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with other men, nor theives, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom."
There's potential argument as to the meaning of the original text- but given that the Bible overall seems to dislike teh gay, it's probably accurate.
(There's another list 1 Timothy 1:8-1:11, which also says men who lie with men.)


If you're going to take the Bible literally- yes, it hates gays. It also contradicts itself repeatedly, says women are posessions and can never be in positions of authority (oh, and should never wear nice clothing or jewellery), says slavery is okay, says intolerance- and killing because of intolerance- is okay, and so on and so forth.
In short, a person has NO right to use the Bible to back up their anti-gay stance unless they live in EVERY OTHER WAY as the Bible tells them to. And these people will not be talking to anyone who doesn't share their beliefs- because the Bible tells them not to.

As for the Bible saying God loves everyone- well, I don't recall seeing that, but since I'm fed up of the book after finding and typing out the above quotes (and yes, I did do that myself) I'm hardly going to go searching for it. But if the Bible DOES say that, it's another contradiction- because it also says to kill your child if they speak ill of their parents, kill adulterers, kill rapists (and rape victims who don't scream for help) and so on- without mercy or compassion- well, that's an odd kind of love.
And don't say that the old testament is "no longer valid". It says in various places that Jesus did not come down to change the "old law", and that earth and Heaven would sooner be destroyed than the old law would be dropped.


:EDIT: I think this belongs in the Red Room. xDD
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Fly Hue on Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:54 pm

I remember that story, Lot offers up his virgin daughter in the angels' place. DDD8 I'm glad that's not my papa. People use that story as evidence that homosexuality is a sin, but my bible footnotes it as why men should not lust after angels, so I've always taken it as a... Your faith should be a love that is pure and platonic, don't drag your lusts into your faith, even though the men were unaware that the visitors were angels.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Felicity on Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:15 am

Maybe it doesn't say it in the Bible. I haven't read it in great detail, but whenever I went to church, the priest always said God loves everyone, so I assumed it was from the Bible. My grandma says that a lot too, and she's very religious.

Well, if it doesn't, my bad. Embarassed
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Jase on Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:39 am

Fly Hue wrote:I remember that story, Lot offers up his virgin daughter in the angels' place. DDD8 I'm glad that's not my papa. People use that story as evidence that homosexuality is a sin, but my bible footnotes it as why men should not lust after angels, so I've always taken it as a... Your faith should be a love that is pure and platonic, don't drag your lusts into your faith, even though the men were unaware that the visitors were angels.
Yeah, you're right. xDD But anyway, I did say that one's debatable as to whether or not it's REALLY anti-gay, but given that there's other examples which are less so, I don't think it bears arguing about. As for that particular story- there's plenty about Sodom and Gomorrah, it's a fairly well-known thing. (Richard desribed it as "sim-party-central". xD) So we could argue that one plenty; but there's no point, to my mind.

Felicity- I'm not saying it's not in the Bible- the fact that I haven't seen it is hardly proof of it's absence. xD But it still WOULD be a contradiction, given- as I said- the Bible says to put people to death without compassion or mercy for many different things.
The contradictions in the Bible alone make me wonder why anyone would follow it; because if you're going to follow a religion that has "laws" and rules it should be to the letter, yet if you live by one part of the Bible the chances are you'll be disobeying another part. So, technically, it's impossible to live entirely, 100%, live by the Bible. (That's forgetting society and how it's evolved, which adds another layer of impossibility.)
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Fly Hue on Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:50 am

Psssht. It doesn't matter what the Bible says when it comes to that stuff. God DOES love everyone, regardless of whether some misogynistic, bigoted patriarch chose to write it down or not. ;P
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Emilyelizabethx on Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:08 pm

I swear 'abomination' was actually a mistranslation for something else, and they had said something trivial was 'abomination' and what it really stood for was something on the lines of 'unfeasable'

Or maybe I'm just getting my wires crossed as per usual XD
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Jase on Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:52 pm

Emilyelizabethx wrote:I swear 'abomination' was actually a mistranslation for something else, and they had said something trivial was 'abomination' and what it really stood for was something on the lines of 'unfeasable'

Or maybe I'm just getting my wires crossed as per usual XD
"This act is unfeasable and all who do it should be put to death"...?
Doesn't quite sound right. And it's used for other- genuinely abominable- sex acts. Like beastiality. (Also, for less abominable ones. xD)

Fly Hue- Damn right! But the subject is the Bible on gay love. ;] And the Bible is why I doubt most Christians will accept me as a Christian, even though I believe in God. God = yay. Bible = nay.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Emilyelizabethx on Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:44 am

Jase wrote:
Emilyelizabethx wrote:I swear 'abomination' was actually a mistranslation for something else, and they had said something trivial was 'abomination' and what it really stood for was something on the lines of 'unfeasable'

Or maybe I'm just getting my wires crossed as per usual XD
"This act is unfeasable and all who do it should be put to death"...?
Doesn't quite sound right. And it's used for other- genuinely abominable- sex acts. Like beastiality. (Also, for less abominable ones. xD)

Fly Hue- Damn right! But the subject is the Bible on gay love. ;] And the Bible is why I doubt most Christians will accept me as a Christian, even though I believe in God. God = yay. Bible = nay.

Hm, I'm sure I read that somewhere...
None the less, Love rules and the Bible can't deny that! :p
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  Felicity on Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:34 am

Jase wrote:The contradictions in the Bible alone make me wonder why anyone would follow it; because if you're going to follow a religion that has "laws" and rules it should be to the letter, yet if you live by one part of the Bible the chances are you'll be disobeying another part. So, technically, it's impossible to live entirely, 100%, live by the Bible.

Hmm, good point. Well, most Christians I know just follow the rules they believe God meant, such as "love everyone," "be kind to your neighbour," etc. Of course, that can go both ways, as someone could just as easily think that rules such as "kill X, X and X people," are the right rules.

Jase wrote:(That's forgetting society and how it's evolved, which adds another layer of impossibility.)

Not to mention the laws that are changing. It's against the law where I live to discriminate against anyone for any reason. So if people do follow the Bible to the letter, they're going to spend a lot of time in jail.

Unfortunately, those laws don't exist everywhere in the world, which will hopefully change, soon.
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Re: Interpretation of the bible referring to gay love etc.

Post  ladyfirst2010 on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:32 am

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Hm, I'm sure I read that somewhere...
None the less, Love rules and the Bible can't deny that! :p

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